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01-Feb-98Note: it is a general Troubled Times policy to change the names of IRC participants to screen names and remove personal discussions that occurred during the chat in the interests of privacy.
FREEDOM: How is everyone today?
VIOLA: Does anyone have a burning issue they want to talk about?
WARMA: One thing about the Troubled Times: It is very US oriented. Last chat, we talked about European membership.
WARMA: We need to research European sources for windmills, possibly water driven electricity as well
VIOLA: Yes, scarcely no Oriental members. We have Australia represented in the group, but here again, Caucasian.
VIOLA: We have an article on windmills in homes in the Netherlands, I think, calling the page People Power or some such.
WARMA: Viewpoints on generating a European branch in Troubled Times?
VIOLA: Will happen, Jan, as well as teams by TOPIC area, pretty much.
NORSEMAN: Viola: windmills... interesting :)
VIOLA: I worried about growth, and how to handle it last year at this time, which is one of the reasons the TEAM concept developed.
VIOLA: In TEAMs, there is a group of folks who are actually trying the solutions, like John doing hydroponics in his house.
WARMA: I do hope that my family and I will make it through the PS. I am really interested in seeing how we would be able to re-organize without a government, without police, money etc.
VIOLA: We often talk about growth here, and how to handle it., I foresee individuals contributing with great seriousness to the TEAMs, and the work of fine tuning, working out the kinks, happening there.
WARMA: I believe we would need a North European group. Most of North Europe will go, not everybody can relocate to the Norwegian or Swedish mountains in advance. Could it be an idea to start building larger scale?
VIOLA: Right now, everyone is half serious, even me. When we have 8.0 earthquakes that ripple around the world, and half the countries in the world are experiencing starvation to some degree, then folks will start getting REALLY serious.
WARMA: I mean, I can build a survival site for me and my family. I will not have the economy on my own to build for a whole community
VIOLA: Community happens naturally, among neighbors most often.
ATOM: I agree. We'll be local sooner or later, if we want it or not.
WARMA: If one acquired a larger area, pretended to build winter cottages (even if they would look a bit weird), more people could participate in preparation
VIOLA: Say you have others that have second homes in the same area you do, as they have targeted the area to be near YOU, for instance.
VIOLA: You then have a community! As the last year approaches, you pool money for expensive items, etc., or one buys this, another that, to complement the community as a whole, not just family.
WARMA: Maybe not break into pieces - this group would die off if split regionally at this time. Rather both central and local
VIOLA: Central and local I'm sure will be it. We have absorbed all the new interests and groups within groups to date, and the structure of Troubled Times is such that this can happen easily.
WARMA: Problem is - so far, I have nobody to start such work with. Chances are I will have to start off on my own, and others join me if and when ready.
VIOLA: Warma, I have a feeling that when the time comes near, at least at the point where only a year remains, that a lot of folks will be nervous and willing to take steps.
VIOLA: Right now, my gut feeling is that we are preparing, getting the structure of our organization(s) in place, ahead of the panic rush.
GEMINI: Which organization is that?
VIOLA: Gemini, Troubled Times the list serve. But I guess I meant the Inc. too.
WARMA: So far, my preparation has been on the mental level only. The seasonal weather has prevented me starting to search for a site yet
VIOLA: So, for instance, where we have translations, it would be natural to have an additional link there to regional Troubled Times interest groups.
NORSEMAN: Maybe, could be an idea.
VIOLA: There was a press recently by a handful of members to form groups within Troubled Times, I mean personal survival groups.
WARMA: Even in the US, I believe you will need a number of local groups.
VIOLA: This was deflected to a Group TOPIC in Troubled Times, where anyone interested in being the coordinator can post a letter, but we only have 3 such letters.
NORSEMAN: I think that such group might develop sooner or later, groups that kind of represent Troubled Times in their area
VIOLA: I know they got response, as Debra said she did.
GEMINI: Such groups would be a temptation for STS folk who ARE running around the 'trees' of our group.
SPOT: Yes
GEMINI: Trees are an analogy for the trustworthy contributors heavy in the STO
WARMA: The largest problem will be, just like in sales, you may get umpteen calls for each sale.
SPOT: I know what you mean:-)
VIOLA: Gemini, a constant worry of mine, yes. That when one of the strong core members is not present, all manner of mischief will play out.
NORSEMAN: Could happen
GEMINI: I am sure that 'they' will take use of such situations
SPOT: I think where I live it will probably happen because I am so isolated, this may happen in other places around the world also.
NORSEMAN: Such groups could attract all kind of people.
VIOLA: For instance, in the Social group, I do not attend, but I trust Gerard, Lyn, and Deb's instincts. They all 3 know each other extremely well, and all have a correct sense of right and wrong, and all stand up to intimidation. So .. I don't worry.
GEMINI: Perhaps the question should be HOW to be sure that the group to be will be STO?
NORSEMAN: But that isn't a easy question.
VIOLA: Gemini, years ago I thought about that, while not understanding what I was thinking about :-) I came up with a concept that if the core of a corporation or whatever is competent, the right stuff, then they keep out problem people.
GEMINI: Yes, I am glad too that there are folk like Gerard, Lyn and Deb around =)
WARMA: Some people I know immediately if they are STOs or STSs. When panic sets in, it may be easy to see who is who, but more difficult to protect the group
VIOLA: If the core is rotten, problem people are comfortable and remain.
VIOLA: This is what I have observed here in Troubled Times, that when problem people come in, trying to pull the focus in a wrong direction (like a cult or religion or into unproven technologies like cold fusion or whatever), they get too much heat and leave!
GEMINI: Viola, I'm not sure about that.
WARMA: My hope is that once the pole shift starts, the core group goes to the survival site, all prepared to handle the rush of survivors after the pole shift.
VIOLA: But I watched ISCNI turn within a year into something other than what Michael Lindeman wanted, in 1995 to 1996.
GEMINI: Viola, they have to speak in order to be recognized though.
VIOLA: But Michael L was not present, he left it to others who were not strong, and it was a sitting duck, as we say, to anyone wanting to take over, etc. And that happened!
VIOLA: Warma, do you think the Troubled Times folks will all try to be together. No way!
VIOLA: This has been a constant theme, however, especially among new folks. I always lecture, and I'll give you the lecture too :-)
GEMINI: Yes, if you begin something then you have the responsibility to be over it.
WARMA: Viola, no, but it would be nice to build the foundation for the local community up front
NORSEMAN: right Gemini
SPOT: Did you guys read that letter about the biosphere dome?
VIOLA: Lecture: we should be preparing solution sets, as for each person you teach or present a solution to, there can be a surviving community, whereas for each person you attach as a group member, this takes your focus and drive away from preparing the solution sets.
GEMINI: Yes I did read it.
NORSEMAN: Spot: I didn't read it yet.
STEVE: I wrote it
SPOT: It is only about 5 miles from my house.
GEMINI: We should wait on Spot to come back with some research on that though.
VIOLA: In other words, if we spend our energies in preparing for groups, settling political issues within the group, etc., then solutions won't develop as fast. Groups will develop ANYWAY, so I hammer on paying attention to the solution sets. The problem with large or early survival sites is that they will come under the attention of others, who will have time to prepare to move in and take over when the time comes.
WARMA: Viola, I believe that is the right focus. Still, if in sync, a team of people can do more than one person.
GEMINI: Viola, that's the 'teach what you know so the taught may teach others and so on' theme.
VIOLA: The rules simply will not be the same then! The strong will rule, and police force, the courts, etc., will be missing.
NORSEMAN: Well yes, more people, but you need trustable people. Don't invite everyone.
GEMINI: Even family might be a problem. =(
SPOT: The chips will fall. Awareness will go far to protect you.
VIOLA: Warma, I think that each person thinks a lot about this when they first come into taking the concepts seriously, but then after they make their personal plans, they talk about it less. I've noticed this, the first year it is an obsession, then gets dropped.
STEVE: In the end the ones in charge will be the ones who know how to run everything to keep people alive.
NORSEMAN: Yes that might be a problem, but from family you know who they are and what they can do ... but from unknown people :(
WARMA: Norseman, now you get to the core of the problem. I believe ZetaTalk says that as the pole shift approaches, meetings will be "arranged" with other STOs
VIOLA: Look at it this way: Right now you have to argue yourself silly with family and friends, but later, as the last year and months approach, you will get cooperation!
NORSEMAN: Warma: subconscious meetings.
VIOLA: Groups will form rapidly in the last few months, folks stripping their homes and taking the good stuff to a survival site where others are grouping, etc.
NORSEMAN: Arranged meetings, Warma.
WARMA: Viola, I am already getting my wife tuning in, the two grown-up kids starting to accept the idea. Trying to keep it from the 3 younger ones, though.
VIOLA: How this is natural but I always lecture that we should focus on solution sets, so we are teachers, as this way the world at large is a better place and each group surviving will benefit from their neighbors.
WARMA: An old discussion, but still: I would look forward to being able to point people at Troubled Times without including the ZetaTalk part.
NORSEMAN: Warma: so if they ask how do you know about 2003 :)
VIOLA: Warma, I was also going to say that many people may not talk about it, but they may be secretly worried. You may find to your pleasant surprise that folks you though would deny to the end and not be open to forming a group suddenly want to talk about it and JOIN. I think a great deal of energy could be spent trying to set up an exact site early, and get folks to join, early, when later on very little energy will need to be spent.
SPOT: I never hide ZetaTalk. I never run when someone laughs.
GEMINI: Viola, well, I was surprised that a close friend of mine just believed me after I told him of a book about it, but he didn't want to believe when I told that I had the information from ZetaTalk. I'm glad there are Sitchin etc. =)
VIOLA: I'll return to my lecture, that if we focus on solution sets now, getting them right, LATER it will be easy to form groups and you'll look back on this time and say "good thing we did the work back then that we did".
WARMA: The problem with ZetaTalk is that I know very few that could accept the idea of mixing UFOs, aliens, religion, re-incarnation etc. as the ZetaTalk info does. Heck, most people think we are genes and environment only,
VIOLA: This is a constant theme too, whether to pretend that ZetaTalk had nothing to do with it or own up to it. However, in the end, there is no hiding this!
SPOT: Lead by doing. Those who don't believe now ARE watching you. They will believe later.
NORSEMAN: Right, you can't hide ZetaTalk
GEMINI: Warma, no it wasn't that. It's hard to believe because the information comes from aliens... people rather accept it from people I guess first.
WARMA: Viola, in the end, you are right. I am worried about the initial rejection from people not there yet on the spiritual side.
GEMINI: Yes, rejection means they won't listen any longer, so you won't be able to reach them, so they won't prepare etc. etc. yet
SPOT: That's because of your great concern for others. They will follow.
WARMA: Gemini, right on.
NORSEMAN: Gemini: I notice that too...mention scientific facts etc., that will help
VIOLA: Gemini, I always emphasize Sitchen and Velikovsky, but MORE I emphasize geo changes in the past. The record is clear and unmistakable!
STEVE: I tell people It's a hobby of mine to work on a solution to survive a Velikovsky scenario.
SPOT: I use "What if?"
GEMINI: What if makes people think.
WARMA: Nancy and the Zetas might be right that once you are ready, you will accept the idea. Still, knowing that I have been a weirdo all my life, I know most people are not there yet
SPOT: Yes, and they will watch you forever.
NORSEMAN: I usually use weather patterns etc.
VIOLA: In fact, I use geo changes to force those in denial to admit they are CHOOSING denial or to switch. I say, if this activity is wrong and foolish, then you explain to me why the oceans of the world dropped 16-20 feet all at once approximately 3,500 years ago, and why Niagara Falls in only in its present course for the last 3-4,000 years, and why .. on and on like that.
SPOT: And I use humor to relax them.
GEMINI: If they are selfish they will start to ponder "what if", they will say something like "better be save than sorry, get me some pretty virgins and move to the hills!" *hehehe*
VIOLA: Steve, excellent!
NORSEMAN: :)
WARMA: I have started using "what if" as well. Still, since only the Zetas say 2003, I keep on saying "it might happen tomorrow, it might happen in 150 years".
NORSEMAN: Warma: well but if they think it might happen in 150 year, "Why prepare?"
SPOT: I also say "It might not happen at all, but, what if?"
GEMINI: Viola, I use everything, beyond their point of conflict. If they are convinced then I give some more data. Make them be sure about it.
VIOLA: Norseman, my point exactly. 2003 is only relevant because the Zetas say 2003. NO ONE ELSE has said that! Ghostwolf having lifted it from ZetaTalk I suspect, as Hopi legends do NOT say 2003.
STEVE: It is difficult to buck the mainstream media and explain to people that climactic changes are caused by internal heating and not the greenhouse effect.
VIOLA: Ghostwolf is a fraud in any case, per the Internet chatter. Not even an Indian.
WARMA: Norseman, this is the problem. Since I'm working in cyberspace, I can hide my activities as "finding the balance"
SPOT: I just had a 16 year old almost beg me for the URL's so he could see what I was doing. He believes in ME. That is a start.
NORSEMAN: Warma: isn't it better to get straight to the point?
VIOLA: Steve, but when we find scientific documentation on that, we put it on the web. It's few and far between, but when brought together, has a punch!
WARMA: But I cannot reveal the date and the source without being considered completely nuts
SPOT: If they believe in YOU, the other stuff is irrelevant.
NORSEMAN: Warma: don't be afraid.
STEVE: We could use 150 years to prepare, it seems at this late date a lot of solutions will be half baked.
SPOT: My logic is, to do it with or without them.
VIOLA: For instance, we just posted articles or postings from professionals that say El Nino is caused by volcanic activity undersea, in the Indonesian oceans area, I believe.
GEMINI: Warma, so you are nuts, so what?
WARMA: Norseman, I'm not afraid. I'm only looking for mechanisms that will work.
VIOLA: Warma, don't worry, as time passes this may change radically!
NORSEMAN: Warma: I know it isn't easy but better be safe then sorry, I understand.
VIOLA: Say for instance the public starts to find a moving reddish object where the Zetas have said it would be for all these months and years.
STEVE: Very good Nancy, I will look for those postings.
FREEDOM: When you approach a skeptic, do they ever have any evidence you are wrong?
VIOLA: One thing that could be said about ZetaTalk, and this is not TRUE but might be used as an excuse that others would feel comfortable with (until they experience their first sighting), is that ZetaTalk could be construed to be a government leak.
SPOT: I treat it like a second job. They say "What do you do here?" I say "Oh just trying to save the world and stuff" They laugh and look.
VIOLA: A way of telling people without owning up to the source.
GEMINI: Viola, yes it could be constructed to be a government leak, the point is that it is true.
NORSEMAN: Right
VIOLA: If my family presses me too hard, I sometimes use that, say "I've heard from people in the government that .." and this is quite TRUE, I HAVE. Then the family member thinks that this is all a way for the government to get the word out, and not Zetas at all, and they leave me alone.
GEMINI: Though it will lose it's integrity altogether then ... but this won't happen as ZetaTalk isn't a government leak!
NORSEMAN: Right
STEVE: Honesty is the best policy, silence is the best protection.
VIOLA: Freedom, skeptics are pointing to the lack of solid evidence that you are right, not evidence you are wrong.
NORSEMAN: You can point them to other sources, to Sitchin, to ancient books etc.
GEMINI: Silence IS the best protection, sometimes.
WARMA: Still, I think Viola is right in that as time passes, solutions are the most important. Others will join.
NORSEMAN: Yes, sometimes, but it's much better to speak and mention it.
VIOLA: One thing that speaks highly of the whole Troubled Times group is the quality of people in it. I'm always amazed!
NORSEMAN: Even if people say NO, I don't believe it. They heard it and they might reconsider their opinion.
GEMINI: Solutions are what we (most) joined for to prepare
SPOT: I find people love to be creative. Ask them a question that is their idea and they talk about this or that would work.
STEVE: Some of the solutions are expensive, money will have to come from somewhere.
VIOLA: One thing we must prepare for, brace for I should say, is that feelings will be high that last year, and as the time approaches.
GEMINI: I have little trust in people in general, but the tt-list just brings forward the best from everybody.
SPOT: I can see that the feelings thing will be sooner than that.
GEMINI: Hmm, money-anxiety. Should do a page on that one.
VIOLA: Those who are frightened will be shrill, demanding for instance that we all get on bended knee and pray, or that martial law must be in place, etc., else how will some folks get fed unless strong arm tactics are in place.
NORSEMAN: Sooner, maybe even this year ?
VIOLA: Frightened people can be quite dangerous!
WARMA: I think solutions should be in place at least one year in advance. If things get worse, if people start understanding that something will happen, a lot of disturbances will happen
NORSEMAN: That's right, they can do all kind of things: murder, kill, steal, etc.
SPOT: Within a few years. As the group gets bigger by leaps and bounds.
STEVE: I'd rather be the monkey that can push the button.
SPOT: Good one:-)
WARMA: Even if you are strong and well prepared yourself, your family may get into emotional problems.
VIOLA: Warma, my feeling is that these are the years to formulate solutions, next year we will start to get avenues open for publishing these solutions, then following that will be a year or two of trying them out, in prototype sites, and the last year, just hanging on!
GEMINI: I am well equipped to handle the emotional problems, I hope that what I will do that others might do that too. So I am working on expanding the section on emotions, but this needs time.
NORSEMAN: but each family is different, some have other opinions.
VIOLA: I've often noted that children will squabble over toys and the like, but if someone outside the family attacks a child, the siblings are right there defending, forming a solid line of defense.
SPOT: Yes, my kids do that.
WARMA: Viola, my approach will be the survival site first. Duplicate everything (two smaller windmills or watermills instead of one larger), one dome on solid rock, one timber cottage on earthquakeproof foundations (if I can get a hold of them) etc.
VIOLA: In a like manner, I think that family squabbles and arguments when the concept of a pole shift is presented may GO AWAY, and all suddenly serious and helpful instead.
NORSEMAN: That might happen
VIOLA: BUT, there will be those who get more shrill, want to take a vacation and spend money on parties and trips, and they will be insistent ad this is the way the press thoughts out of their head, etc.
GEMINI: That will be so.
GEMINI: People need to have time =-(
VIOLA: So 1. develop solution sets now, 2) expect to have groups form rapidly later, 3. expect to have distractions later too!
GEMINI: You have prepared yourself well for this chat =)
VIOLA: I think one of the saddest things is going to be folks in cities, or old age homes, or handicapped with no one much interested in caring for them, as they will realize they will DIE. However, I guess that's the human condition anyway.
GEMINI: saquo, in other words, life will go on, your preparations won't avoid the problems in life, distractions of life (people, weather, money etc.). It's a full deal here, all or nothing *hehehe*
VIOLA: Gemini, I do consider it all or nothings, but in fact don't live my life like that 100% as yet! I'll bet few of us here are doing that.
GEMINI: You always are 100% =)
VIOLA: I guess I would describe my life more as living a double life, and if you include the contactee thing, a triple lift, and if you consider the MJ12 thing, a quadruple life!
GEMINI: I understand your point.
VIOLA: I keep the parts separate from each other, a bit.
SPOT: Geeeesh, you are busy aren't you?:-)
GEMINI: I integrate it all.
SPOT: Hehehe
VIOLA: Some parts are in conflict with each other.
STEVE: The Troubled Times part of my life is kind of lonely. People are not very receptive.
NORSEMAN: Yes
GEMINI: Yes a bit sometimes, but that is dealt with and will be resolved sooner or later
WARMA: Viola, I never had anything like your quadruple life. Still, I recognize the split
VIOLA: Well, I find the part I want to drop is the damn job, paying for the rent, etc. So unnecessary in the long term, so silly if you line it up with what is coming, but I can't let it go as yet.
VIOLA: Steve: this is why folks chatter within Troubled Times, as at last they have found folks who have the same vague hunch, have put facts together and arrived at a conclusion also, etc.
GEMINI: Yes it is, the rent, the bills every month, school I like though.
VIOLA: Jan, YOU have at least a double life!
STEVE: Thanks, helps me stay motivated.
WARMA: Viola, to me, on the contrary. I find my work interesting, stimulating, getting me around, helping people get the best out of their systems, enjoying myself. Work is not the problem...
GEMINI: Lets see, there is the human me living this ordinary live, there is the Starchild me trying to adapt and express, and there is the contact me =)
WARMA: The problem is the foundation for it all, global injustice, people valuing stocks and bonds over real work and human beings.
WARMA: Being able to see through it all and still stay there, yes, it is a double life!
NORSEMAN: It is, sort of Warma.
VIOLA: I'm looking forward to the time when I can spend 100% of my time on 1. interviews, 2. visiting and filming prototype sites, 3. building Troubled Times content, 4. maybe influencing public opinion, 5. lecture tour .. like that
STEVE: Just wait until the trouble in the eastern economies comes home
WARMA: Norseman; Que? What is ... sort of me?
VIOLA: Steve: what do you mean, trouble .. coming home, etc.
NORSEMAN: Warma: the double life
STEVE: The financial collapse in the Asian economies, it will affect us in a year or so.
VIOLA: Steve: Oh, you bet! I think this is the start of a global depression, and down and down it the way it will go. This is only the start, as starvation and loss of confidence sets in, financial markets will collapse.
GEMINI: Viola, all, it will be a mess before the cataclysms set in.
STEVE: People will wonder why they can't afford food anymore and will be very receptive to alternate means of food production.
VIOLA: This is why I don't invest, don't put money into stocks and bonds. Just the safest. As I feel this will depress terribly. Buy land, and equipment like windmills, etc. And seed, and concrete, and tools, etc. Not stocks.
GEMINI: Buy it with WHAT?
VIOLA: Gemini :-) should you have $$, buy that, not stock.
WARMA: I have never invested a penny in stocks and bonds. Never felt natural. All my investments have been home and family.
GEMINI: Most of us don't have such money to spend, it's hard to get by as it is already.
NORSEMAN: Right ... Viola, better to buy those kind of things
